Gas Struts On Beds

This is the start of a topic for Gas Struts On Beds.

I got into a conversation about gas struts whilst in parallel I was thinking that they were a necessary tool for single handed erection.  

There has been quite a bit written about beds and gas struts but I think some of the basics have not been addressed.

I am intending to write a number of emails to various gas strut companies and some of the principals in Dandy diy gas strut design.

So allowing for the possibility that some of you know more than me (not difficult) here are my basic design questions?

If all the instructions for gas struts say fit with the body uppermost why has everyone done the opposite other than the German builder and the diy Destiny bed struts?

What happens if we change the offsets for the fixing of the mounting points? The dimensions on the diagram shown in the Yahoo group show 330mm out from the hinge point on the bed and 170mm down on the body. The picture of bed and strut system with failed rivets  highlighted seems to use differing dimensions much more like an equidistant spacing?

Why do we space the strut positions in the same way on both sides or indeed use the same struts? The LHS (upper) bed has the strain of pulling the whole roof across as well as the bed the RHS (lower) bed is erected with the roof bar sliding beneath the roof. When I get to quoting details to a gas strut supplier does anyone know the weight of the  bed frame (with or without bed) and the roof?
I see the the Destiny and Dimension struts are mounted asymmetrically. Indeed the rear ones lie with the bed end lower than the body.

Are Rover 25 standard struts universally considered to be inadequate?

The self made mounting brackets are actually a difficulty or an expense. What is the corner construction of the body like where the bracket attaches? Does it have insufficient strength to allow mounting on one face only? Likewise the bed, rather than spacing from the upright in the "I" section what about a plate on the the base extending outwards? The bed hinges from it's base so if anything it's equalising the forces.Though this would Slightly decrease the force on a bed to be unfolded, and increase the lifting force on the extended bed and increasing the need for a catch to hold the extended bed down. This statement is in error the bed hinges at the top of the bed so if one end of the gas strut was joined there it would decrease the force on the bed in its folded position but would further increase the force on the unfolded bed. A fixing point as high (on the opened bed) as possible would tend to equalise the push on the bed in folded and unfolded states but that brings it's own problems of possible gaps and draughts from the bat wing.    

I want to illustrate this but can't lift pictures and diagrams from word documents. I can open in "Open Office" but cant copy pictures or diagrams. If you can please PM me and send the copies through that media or if needs be I'll forward my email address for you to then post to.
Think I've got something wrong? Got more questions? Anything else? Please comment this is my opening attempt at a work in progress, hopefully it can all be cut and pasted to provide a definitive guide in the end.
Though pictures and ideas are coming from a variety of sources the majority of the details come from files in the Yahoo site

Having fitted gas struts, I fitted them body upwards this keeps the gas on the seal and stops them drying out.
On the question of the position of the struts,I ignored the info on the yahoo site and set them equal distance , that is to say when the bed is the upright position the strut is equal amount either side of the hinge, I did use the rover ones and found them up to the job making erection quite easy single handed.
p.s. the info on the yahoo site that says compress the strut is wrong and fool hardy, the strut is fitted at its longest stroke, and that is when the bed is upright, and it then gets compressed when opened and shut.

John wrote: Having fitted gas struts, I fitted them body upwards this keeps the gas on the seal and stops them drying out.
On the question of the position of the struts,I ignored the info on the yahoo site and set them equal distance , that is to say when the bed is the upright position the strut is equal amount either side of the hinge, I did use the rover ones and found them up to the job making erection quite easy single handed.
p.s. the info on the yahoo site that says compress the strut is wrong and fool hardy, the strut is fitted at its longest stroke, and that is when the bed is upright, and it then gets compressed when opened and shut.

Would there be any chance of you posting some photo's next time you use her.
The way you have explained it, i think is the way i would do it.
So you mount the struts when the bed is in the upright position and the struts are fully extended.
you mount the struts an equal distance on the bed frame and on the body.
So the struts are full extended when the bed is upright, and fully closed when the bed is closed and when the bed is open.

That is it exactly, just make sure when the beds are upright the struts at not under any pressure at all

I'm still waiting for replies on this and will no doubt be asking more questions when the professionals get back.
I fear I may have castigated Riva unfairly. I'm not sure the strut is mounted uppermost. I think there may be a cover over the strut so I'm looking at things the wrong way round. Photos of struts known to be fitted by Riva are a bit rare. Do you have struts fitted by Riva? Can you put me straight?
People like John leave me in awe. I might learn what is required to do a job but doing it is a different thing.
A job done beats knowing what to do but not achieving it any day.
My initial thoughts are that there will have to be some pressure on the strut at maximum extension. If not the folded Dandy will leave too much strut extended. About 70% of the struts total length will still be extended. Or with my rudimentary maths that's what I think anyway. What I think isn't too important I got my questions asked in my first email. So come on before I get my first lot of questions replied to prime me with more questions?

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Brilliant.
They look like commercially available brackets.
That's far better than using home made ones and home made ones are more possible for me than many as I can weld.
The lower bracket just bent?
The upper bracket standard with a suitable alloy spacer?

All purchased, just had to make a spacer for the top ones

Just to be clear the bent brkt is a standard 90 deg bracket, all from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] SGS-ENGINEERING .COM

Great to see some pictures john, can you tell me which struts you purchased?
Are they the adjustable type where you let the gas out gradually till you get the right pressure. Pete

Having seen John struts in action ........... they are fantastic, the beds are a doddle to lift. His raised and upgraded suspension is excellent too. A very helpful gent with brilliant knowledge and skills.

Just redone john's link hope its the right place [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The struts are off a rover 25, if you get them from scrap yard make sure you get the spring clips with them, they are what hold it on to the ball.

Having given more thought to this, what is needed is a new approach. A cam action that holds the bed down when closed and down when opened, at the moment the bed tends to lift from the thrust of the strut, a simple cam action would solve this similar to what a car uses , there is a point in travel that holds the boot shut and a little lift from the user and it lifts open, that is the answer. It may prove a can of worms owning to the hinge not being engineered to suit the force that will be placed on it, or indeed the weld on the bed frames, but hey why not give it a go, mine works at the moment do I need to progress this to a higher level, in theory at least I will have a go, but I do not think a dandy in it present state could handle the forces generated without costly changes to the hinge and re-enforced welds to the bed sections, it may prove a bridge too far

Hi John, I like your gas struts. What size ball end is needed with the Rover 25 struts, 8 or 10mm?
Cheers,
Dave

I'm sure it would be possible to create something to hold the bed to the legs when the Dandy is open to stop any lift, perhaps some type of screw through the bracket/L shaped bit at the top of the Dandy leg

8mm ball

On second thoughts they may be 10mm ball I will check it out

I haven't forgot about this, I have had my mind on some other things but have been in contact with two manufacturers who supposedly help with technical details.
I don't know if they imagine that they are specifying for me only and don't wish to spend time on the problem.
I would have thought that a link to a forum might suggest several prospective customers are interested.
SGS didn't think it was possible when I first spoke to them on the phone until I stated they had already sold gas struts for this purpose. They had me send an email to which they have not yet responded.
The people trading as Gas Struts Direct were a little more forthcoming. They spoke to me, invited an email and upon my phoning them for a second time sent me the following email:

Hi Kevin,
Thank you for your e-mail.
I have studied the video and the drawings that you have sent me and conclude the following.
The gas strut you are looking for is a NS-V-8-250-E3-E3-650N.
The fixing positions you have shown in your drawing are correct the gas struts will need to be mounted on the outside of the fold out camper so that you can achieve the full 180 degrees movement that is required. I believe that you will require 4 of gas struts per unit.
Before I quote you on the above gas strut please can you inform me of the follow.
What is the volume of your enquiry, e.g do you need gas struts just for the one unit or more?
Where are you based as I may be able to arrange for our sales manager to come and see you to discussed the options available further?

Well I'm shocked I never realised I'd need 4 struts. Nor that to arc over 180^o you need to place the strut on the outside.
Fix as per the drawings. I'm sure you will all off and do that without me justifying why you should fit in that position as against equidistant.
The strut specified how does it relate to the previously used Rover 25 strut. Specifically is the strut diameter greater?
What is the volume of struts I require? I would imagine that relates to: Cost. Whether I can purchase a complete package of struts and brackets. What the specified strut is. (some might prefer a stainless strut and or protective covers)
I want at least one strut set. If the price were right I'd put a set on my other Dandy before I sell it. Again if it made the price right I might buy a couple more sets to sell on. Conversely if we had a specified product of 4 struts X 4 brackets Y and four brackets Z packaged up with an authoritative set of fitting instructions I imagine several sets could be sold on by the producer. After all two different people offer to do this commercially.

I'll get back to these people and SGS if need be other producers. If your interested in fitting struts let me know I'll see if we can get a suitable discount be it through the supplier if I can do a group purchase or myself buying and posting on.

Rover 25 struts are rated at 360n

Thanks John

I'am trying to plug on with this and that is the sort of information that makes comparison possible or an understanding of the accuracy of what I'm being told.

The Length I have for the Rover strut is 600mm with a 220mm stroke so it compresses to 380mm.

Does that seem about right?

Is it the struts on the beds that have been found wanting and bent, or just the struts on the walls on 6's?.

Or have struts bent on beds but it's been felt that it was because of hinge failure or structural failure near the hinge?

I don't have gas struts on my beds only on the walls and How would I know that they are broke? also if poss with gas struts on the beds is it poss to have them in the frame rather than out

Having had problems with the wall struts Mike will be the person to tell you about them.
Do they help push up the walls or not?
WRT the struts on 6's. Without information from those with 6's or lowside Destinys I presume they have more in common to the rest of the range than the system used on the highside Destinys.
Don't take my word for this though. Descriptions of how to fit gas struts to both sorts of Dandys are contained in files within the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] You need a yahoo website address to enter but the files are a treasure of information. I've pilfered odd bits of info, hopefully always crediting them.
If you read the gas strut info hopefully you will see why I wanted to get confirmation on the best way to fit struts though.

Caz1960 wrote: I don't have gas struts on my beds only on the walls and How would I know that they are broke? also if poss with gas struts on the beds is it poss to have them in the frame rather than out

The sides should raise with one hand and on lowering the wall you should feel its nearly controlling itself with you just helping.

rover struts are 600long 220 stroke, I cannot see a gas strut failing if it is fitted correctly, they do not buckle and bend on cars because the hinge controls it, this is where the answer lies, make sure the hinge is free and secure and the problem will not arise.
gas strut number is 6714DA 0360N 341/98A22
BHE45001