Advice wanted

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This is a long one even for me. Grab a cup of tea and a biscuit. Second thoughts make it a pint mug and a packet of biscuits.

Tow Itch wrote: Dear Julie

I'm really sorry your confused. The point of answering a question is to add clarity not add confusion. That should only occur if the answer isn't clear and the best that can be achieved is to draw your attention to the issues and possible conflicts.
I'm known for writing tomes. I initially tried to avoid that last night because I was knackered. I then went to send and saw bgarston's post and realised I'd missed out something obvious. Instead of re writing I did a piss poor re hash and fired it off.

I'll try to refine into a more user friendly form, hopefully with some non confrontational conclusions.
I'll then argue my corner against bgarston hopefully us both enlightening each other.

Sorting supper out is required first.

If any of you saw I was logged on for a couple of days at a time I tried to write this up and needed other tabs open to add links. Such was the number of tabs that in jumping from one to the other I deleted the part written piece 3 times.

mike wrote:Don't forget the pale blue and white sixes they are sold under the destiny name but the spec matches the six including weight,not going to add to the towing confusion just to say its easy to come up with different answers in the beginning even the government sites got it wrong.

Ever site I have read on the subject of towing law is in error. How do I know that and who am I to judge? Good question if 4 sites say X and 1 says Y it does not necessarily mean Y is wrong as best as I can I have tried to take things to a source.
There is every chance that there is an error here please read and add any comment hopefully we can refine this and make it a sticky.

Glossary of Mass (weight) Related Terms Any hope of a sensible law on towing is lost when those framing it mix up the terms weight and mass but here is a glossary of terms from the NTTA (National Trailer And Towing Association) Any Italics mine.

Unladen Weight (UW)
The weight of the trailer (or towing vehicle) less removable optional equipment and load but what is quoted may or may not include aircon, other options and tow bar. If it suits your purpose weigh your car empty and deduct the fuel load
Gross Weight
The total weight of the trailer (or towing vehicle) and load Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or Gross Weight Mass (GWM) The total weight of the towing vehicle and its load Never heard of GWM but is also the same as Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
Maximum Gross Weight (MGW)
The maximum figure set by the manufacturer for the gross weight. This will normally be the technically permissible maximum based on the carrying capacity of the tyres, axles, coupling, suspension and chassis but may have been adjusted downwards for commercial reasons
Technically Permissible Maximum Weight MTPM is usually applied to to caravans where the notional maximum for the chassis is varied on different models.
The technically permissible maximum based on the capacity of the tyres, axles, coupling, suspension and chassis
Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
As maximum gross weight above. The latest EC term as used in the Driver Licensing Regulations
Gross Train Weight (GTW )
The maximum allowable combined weight (combined MAM) of the towing vehicle and trailer as set by the towing vehicle manufacturer
Payload:
The difference between the gross weight of the trailer and its unladen weight, i.e. The load carrying capacity
Kerb Weight/Kerbside Weight
The weight of the towing vehicle (without payload), including all fluids required for operation (95/48/EEC: Vehicle, 90% full tank, 68kg driver and 7kg luggage.) not always been defined and you may find your handbook lists a figure derived differently see also unladen weight wrt accessories

What Can I Tow Unbraked Trailers Applies To All B Licenses (Cars less than 3,500Kg less than 8 seats)

The maximum weight is 750Kg this is further limited by you cars maximum listed unbraked towing weight and it can be no more than half of the kerbweight of the car. All sites found state kerbweight not unladen weight. see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

What can I Tow Braked Trailer Pre 1997 License.
Often quoted as up to a maximum train weight of 8,250 Kg with a trailer weighing no more than 750Kg or a maximum train weight of 7,500Kg. With the trailer when fully loaded weighing no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] C1+E and D1+E. The total weight is not 12,00Kg as you have restriction 107 on your license.
This isn't the full story If the vehicle is under 3,500Kg and has less than 8 seats you can drive on your B+E entitlement. In that case the only limit is the maximum train weight of the towing vehicle. Many users of large motorhomes are being steered towards fifth wheel trailer caravans. A vehicle say a crew cab transit can have a maximum train weight of something like 9,500Kg with a kerbweight of 2,800Kg. If downplated to 3,500Kg from 5,000Kg the MTPM or even the gross weight of the trailer can weigh more than the Gross weight of the towing vehicle. This would also be legal with a conventional trailer but fifth wheel arangements are far more stable than conventional trailers. See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Relevant paragraph Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM
Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.
I was made aware of this by vwalan on UK Campsites [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] If you search out his posts they often read awkwardly but he does know his stuff on B+E weights. The largest vehicle I have heard of is an Iveco flatbed that has a maximum train weight in the region of 11,500Kg. N.B. The maximum weight of a trailer on overrun brakes is 3,500Kg, these trailers need other braking.If you think you may want this option and have a post 1997 license you MUST gain a B+E license before 19th January 2013. See: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Relevant paragraph Category BE
If your trailer weighs over 750 kg and the combined trailer and towing vehicle weight is more than 3,500 kg, you’ll need to pass a further test. The trailer you tow must not be heavier than 3,500 kg. This test will be shown on your driving licence as category BE.

What Can I Tow Post 1997 License
You only get a category B and B1 License so see: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Three, or four-wheeled
light vehicles
Motor tricycles, quadricycles and three or four wheeled vehicles with an unladen weight no more than 550kg.
B
Cars
Motor vehicle with a MAM of up to 3,500kg, no more than eight passenger seats with or without a trailer – weighing no more than 750kg.
As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750kg. The total weight of
the vehicle and trailer together can’t weigh more than 3500kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can’t weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle. A description from the camping and caravanning club see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] A more wordy version from Directgov [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Relevant passage Car driving licence first obtained since 1 January 1997
Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 are required to pass an additional driving test in order to gain entitlement to category B+E and all larger vehicles. In addition to the new driving tests, drivers of vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E also have to meet higher medical standards.

Ben's and My Previous Statements

It's interesting to note that both Ben and I stated that the MPTM of the trailer (caravan) needed to be less than the kerbside weight of the towing vehicle. This is in error it needs to be less than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. I have quoted Kerbweight previously and criticised those who stated that the figure was unladen weight. I would not have done that flippantly. I and presumably Ben picked up the statement from a reliable source. I believe that the Direct Gov website quoted kerbweight previously but have no proof of this.

Changes In Towing Regulations January 2013 Mentioned earlier is a change to the B+E license or BE (I think(?)B+E is staying as is and there will be this new category of BE) as it is referred to there to limit the trailers weight to 3,500Kg. B licenses are not changing in January in this country. Strangely considering the purpose of changes is supposed to be license harmonisation. Many European countries licenses will allow their nationals to tow a trailer above 750Kg and for the maximum train weight to be 4,250Kg as per under 750Kg trailers. See: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Relevant Paragraphs For new limit on B+E (BE?)licenses Category BE
If your trailer weighs over 750 kg and the combined trailer and towing vehicle weight is more than 3,500 kg, you’ll need to pass a further test. The trailer you tow must not be heavier than 3,500 kg. This test will be shown on your driving licence as category BE.
For the news on the new 4,250Kg limit for B licenses that will NOT apply in this country. This is not placed in the piece on new rules for January 2013 but in a piece entitled New Rules For Vehicles You Can Drive And Minimum Ages See: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Relevant section Category Description Minimum age
B Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver, with a trailer up to 750kg 17*
B Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver, with a trailer over 750kg, where the combination MAM is not exceeding 4250kg 17**
B+E Combinations of vehicles consisting of a vehicle in category B and a trailer, where the combination does not come within category B and the MAM of the trailer or semi-trailer does not exceed 3500kg 17*
*Age 16 if you are getting Disability Living Allowance (mobility allowance) at the higher rate.
**New element of category B (UK will not be taking this up. To drive vehicles within this definition, entitlement B+E will be needed).

Why I Think There Is No Problem If The MTPM Of A Destiny And The MAM Of The Car was 50Kg or 100Kg Above 3,500Kg
If the added Maximum Gross Weight of the vehicle and the Maximum Theoretical Permitted Mass of the Destiny 1,000Kg exceed 3,500Kg then you can be prosecuted regardless of the actual mass of the two.
Well sort of! I have found a site where a VOSA officer stated that they are only prosecuting weight offences on the weight actually carried. He produced a link or copy of VOSA officers instructions. This also stated that offences where the excess weight was 5% or under it was to be dealt with by a verbal warning (Alas I can't now find this) A friend of mine is also in liaison with VOSA he is told he needs a tachograph if his (commercial) flatbed and trailer have a joint "theoretical" train weight of over 3,500Kg. He is in liaison with VOSA as he believes that VOSA have only ever been able to prosecute actual overweight incidents and not theoretical ones. It is possible that some theoretical offences may be being re assessed. This first part is only a belief and I'm not aware of facts on this yet.
Who says what the MTPM of a Destiny is? Having spoken to Ian I know that he is happy for a Designer to have up rated suspension to 750Kg. If I'm "pulled" with an up rated Designer how will VOSA asses that I'm OK with a plus 500Kg trailer weight? They will look at the load index on the tyres then look at the suspension and then the coupling. All components may be in excess of a quoted MTPM though.
See : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] So all trailers post 1982 are to be clearly marked with a maximum gross weight. Is your Dandy I've seen some with and some without. I have an ERDE trailer that is not 10 years old does not have a marked maximum weight. It certainly does not have the code of practice plate and I've never found a year marked on the trailer. I know that Dandys have the year in code form but do any of them have the D.O.T. recommended plate? So there is no authorised weight stamp on most Dandys. If some do have one of the recommended plates, Riva as manufacturer can re plate it. If no plate you can put any marked maximum weight on it as long as it's less than the minimum rated component part. i.e. you can put a lesser weight on it yourself.

Why I'm Dubious Of Sites That Advise You Of Vehicle Weights

I did some weight research previously. See: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
When fact finding I was disappointed in the sites I looked at and subsequently wrote: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Where is the Vin Plate With Towing Weights On?

It's on the passenger B pillar.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The first line is the MAM the second line the Maximum train weight.
The maximum towing weight or MTPM of the trailer is NOT the difference there may well be a higher weight that may be towed with a lesser load on the car.

Why I Distrust Sites Even official Sites For Facts

Look at the site for the above VIN plate: They confuse kerbweight and unladen weight. They also say Ford quoted the maximum towing capacity as 1,200Kg but the difference between the MAM and Train Weight is 1,210Kg so the towing capacity must be at least that.

Direct Gov webpage [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] This recommends following the 85% rule. They say it is 85% of unladen weight it's not the the 85% rule (actually a guide) is based on kerbweight.

Direct Gov webpage [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] recommends reading The Highways Agency's "Fit To Tow" Admittedly the link leads to a 2009 copy so the maximum trailer width quoted is wrong but see also Page 7 states unladen and kerbweight as the same. Page 12 Lists the maximum MTPM of the trailer as needing to be less than the kerbweight. Page 14 the trailer MUST have a makers plate (regardless of weight or age) There are more errors but I lost the will to read any more.

Haynes Trailer manual: Page 42 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Mixes up unladen and kerbweight and suggests you link the secondary coupling of an unbraked trailer to the "pigtail" intended for breakaway cables, "Ouch".

My favoured Indespension's "the Trailer Manual" Pages 12 and 20 (no link) The maximum GVW of an unbraked trailer is 750Kg or 50% of the GVW of the towing vehicle which ever is the lower. No it's kerbweight.

The NTTA site has several errors but are item specific not within the remit of an item on weights. Still a good sit to read:http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/